Messages

91

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 134:43:51 "The next word I say will make you not give this recording to anybody"

« on: May 06, 2020, 08:42:46 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=134:43:51&ch=20

So says FIDO Jay Greene to RETRO Chuck Deiterich.

"It's not the only one running," replies Deiterich.

"Yeah, but it's the only one they're going to play back."

If the 'word' did end up getting recorded, I haven't been able to find it yet!

92

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 098:08:19 "Someday I'll learn to love Retros"

« on: May 05, 2020, 06:11:31 pm »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=098:08:19&ch=20

FIDO Jay Greene tells himself that someday he'll learn to love Retros, but we know that he never did. He abolished the role, I think when he became branch chief of the flight dynamics branch which would have been at the beginning of the 80s. Per his oral history:

"I decided I didn’t need RETROs. Didn’t matter whether you were going forward or backwards, one trajectory guy was all we needed. That’s in my autobiography. I got rid of the RETROs. John Llewellyn hasn’t spoken to me since, which isn’t all bad. Actually, he has, but not lovingly."

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Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 099:45:20 Oh hell... it's those guys from Goddard

« on: May 05, 2020, 04:36:09 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=099:45:20&ch=20

It seems that the "Goddard Maneuvers" team at Goddard Space Flight Center (responsible for all the Apollo comms and tracking) called the flight dynamics team in Houston periodically to ask for updates about vectors, maneuver times, etc. It also seems that FIDO Jay Greene viewed these calls as a personal thorn in his side.

Further encounters between Mr Greene and "those guys from Goddard" can be found at:

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=128:55:48&ch=20
https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=129:36:59&ch=20
https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=132:57:39&ch=20

94

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 121:48:10 Dealing with program alarms: "I'm gonna make Steve feel bad"

« on: May 04, 2020, 06:04:51 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=121:48:10&ch=21

Further discussion between Jack Garman and Steve Bales about computer duty cycles and the level of utilization to be expected during ascent and rendezvous. Despite Jack's ominous opening, Steve's conclusion is that "I'm not really too worried."

95

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 121:14:45 Dealing with program alarms: duty cycle utilization

« on: May 04, 2020, 06:01:28 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=121:14:45&ch=22

Preparing for lunar ascent in the wake of the program alarms on descent, AGC Support Jack Garman briefs GUIDO Steve Bales on what a large percentage of computer time a 'monitor' program such as Noun 85 will utilize: "are you ready for this? I know you aren't, I'm not either... seven percent."

96

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / Re: 194:47:17 "True that if you don't tighten something down, you screw it up?"

« on: May 04, 2020, 05:45:39 am »

Very interesting sliver of history.

I thought so!

Between them, Greene (11, 15, 16, 17) and Reed (12, 14) were the only FIDOs ever to work a lunar descent. And Greene would have done 13 too if events hadn't intervened. So clearly whatever he "screwed up," his bosses didn't hold it against him!

97

Apollo 13 Moments of Interest / 058:06:19 Jack Garman checks Jim Lovell's arithmetic

« on: May 04, 2020, 03:12:32 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/13/?t=058:06:19&ch=21

The set-up for this will be familiar to anyone who has seen the film Apollo 13: Jim Lovell asks the ground to check his arithmetic to ensure that he's correctly transferred the guidance alignment from the CM into the LM. (You can hear this at 058:04:03.)

In the film you can see the line of controllers in the Trench frantically scribbling out calculations and immediately giving the thumbs up. In actuality, Glynn Lunney had to chase Guidance about it... three times.

And then who actually did the checking? That voice from the backroom is as clear as a bell: it's Jack Garman, the backroom hero of Apollo 11.

"OK, we have LGC data, look at the (?), and when you're satisfied, as we are, tell him that his arithmetic is good."

98

General Discussion / Re: Identifying speakers/ Mission Control teams

« on: May 04, 2020, 03:01:18 am »

Great idea. Here's a shift list.

Thanks, I haven't seen that version of the shift lists before, where did you get it from?

They are a good guide to the overall cast of characters working a mission, but as said they're often misleading when it comes to the particulars. For instance, if you look at this one, you would think that Charlie Dumis was the EECOM on Gene Kranz's team during Apollo 13, when we know for certain that it was Sy Liebergot. I would want to have anything in those lists confirmed by recognizing a voice, hearing someone called by name rather than callsign (if you didn't already know who worked FIDO during the lunar descent, you certainly would after hearing Steve Bales saying "Jay, Jay" every couple of minutes!), or a mention in a reliable book.

The problem is particularly difficult with the Trench because they tended to work particular mission phases (launch/TEI/descent/what have you) rather than being pegged to particular flight directors. Rick Houston says that the Flight Dynamics Branch kept a record of who worked what, and that would be an immense help as a starting point. I'm halfway tempted to try to find his email address and just write to him to see if he's willing to share.

But really it would be great just to have a definitive list of MOCR shift change times as a framework to slot this all into. The Apollo Flight Journal for Apollo 8 is partly organized in terms of which team was on duty, but this annoyingly isn't the case for 11 or 13.

99

Apollo 11 Moments of Interest / 194:47:17 "True that if you don't tighten something down, you screw it up?"

« on: May 01, 2020, 04:28:20 pm »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/11/?t=194:47:17&ch=20

As re-entry approaches, a little bit of banter amongst the men of the Trench about "tightening down a vector" transitions to a slightly out-of-the-blue, slightly mean spirited (IMO) joke from the FIDO on duty, who I think is Dave Reed, about his fellow FIDO Jay Greene, who isn't present.

What did Reed think Greene had screwed up? On Apollo 11, as far as I know, he only worked the descent shift, when there was of course the small issue of targeting and the LM landing four miles long.

Wider context, which may or may not be relevant, is that Dave Reed had been furious about not getting chosen as the FIDO for the lunar descent shift. He left NASA a year and a half after Apollo 11. Both Jay Greene and Ed Pavelka, who made the assignment, think this was because he was so angry about getting passed over for Apollo 11. (Reed denies this.)

I may be completely off base but I think what we're listening to here is a slight case of sour grapes.

100

Apollo 13 Moments of Interest / 56:48:50 "Pretty gruesome at the moment"

« on: May 01, 2020, 11:21:53 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/13/?t=056:48:50&ch=20

John (Llewellyn, probably) phones the MOCR asking for Bobby Spencer, his fellow RETRO, and gets an update on the problem from someone on the FIDO console instead.

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Apollo 13 Moments of Interest / Re: 56:17:26 "Did it just kinda go away? Is it just a glitch?"

« on: May 01, 2020, 11:12:18 am »

You're welcome! I have been doing so much listening trying to identify people on the Trench loops. I'd be happy to join forces if there's anything you want to try to figure out - I made a post about this in the general discussion forum.

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Apollo 13 Moments of Interest / 56:17:26 "Did it just kinda go away? Is it just a glitch?"

« on: May 01, 2020, 07:16:58 am »

https://apolloinrealtime.org/13/?t=056:17:26&ch=20

Early in the crisis, GUIDO Gran Paules (who's presumably at home off shift) calls FIDO Bill Stoval to ask what's going on with the spacecraft. Conversation subsequently continues on the GUIDO loop as Paules is transferred to talk with Will (Fenner?).

103

General Discussion / Re: Identifying speakers/ Mission Control teams

« on: April 30, 2020, 10:22:32 am »

Further thoughts... this problem is obviously particularly acute on Apollo 13, with various people being pulled off console for Kranz's Tiger Team (including some who weren't on the White Team to start with, like John Aaron), swapping around to fill in for one another during procedures meetings etc, and people hanging around even when they weren't on shift.

For example: at 95:46 or so, Glynn Lunney is on as Flight Director and Jay Greene (whose voice is unmistakable) is working the FIDO console, although he's not listed on the Black Team in the published manning lists and wasn't on console during Lunney's shifts earlier in the flight.

He gets a call from Charlie Parker, asking "who's on the Guido console?" https://apolloinrealtime.org/13/?t=095:46:49&ch=20

Greene's response: "Who's on the Guido console? You wanna go from left to right or right to left? I got Bales, Mill(?), Wells, Fenner and Pressley."

Who was actually speaking on the Guido loop? I know it wasn't Bales, because his voice is just as distinctive as Greene's, but beyond that... well, your guess is as good as mine...

104

General Discussion / Identifying speakers/ Mission Control teams

« on: April 27, 2020, 04:34:17 pm »

It occurs to me that an interesting crowdsourcing project could be to try to gather together a list of some of the actual participants in some of the key phases of the mission.

It would be relatively easy to pull together a list of Mission Control shift changes and hence teams and flight directors on duty at particular times, since all of that seems to be announced by the PAO. But beyond that, it's not always easy to tell who's on console, given the specialist ascent/descent/entry teams that worked some shifts (plus possible changes in manning after the manning lists were published?).

For example, in Apollo 11, if you look at the manning lists reproduced in the 20th anniversary flight operations reunion book, you get the following selection:

Shift 2: Flight Director Gene Kranz, FIDO Jerry Bostick, GUIDO Ken Russell and Charley Parker
Shift 3: Flight Director Glynn Lunney, FIDO Jay Greene and Phil Shaffer, GUIDO Bill Fenner and Steve Bales

Whereas what you actually had (per ALSJ, oral histories, etc) was the following:

Descent team: Flight Director Gene Kranz, FIDO Jay Greene (who says he only worked this shift in the whole mission), GUIDO Steve Bales
Ascent team: Flight Director Glynn Lunney, FIDO Dave Reed (I'm sorry, it was Phil Shaffer!), GUIDO Steve Bales (again)

Is anyone besides me interested in trying to figure some of this out? I can recognise some people's voices, and sometimes names are used, but it's a monumental task...

105

General Discussion / Re: Download of a complete "mission".

« on: April 21, 2020, 04:53:54 pm »

Thanks daniel for your help.

I've also discovered this rather useful guide to the content of the tapes: http://users.umiacs.umd.edu/~oard/teaching/269/spring19/hw/E4/